Join Pete Evans as he speaks to founder and current manager of Loaded PR, Gemma Birbeck.
Gemma brings her PR and marketing background to the episode and discusses the importance of building a brand and a digital footprint but also looks at how businesses including her own are built with or without a sales team. For new owners, this episode provides many golden nuggets about what to prioritise when starting a new business. Gemma talks about how she started her business and how despite not having sales people, she found herself selling.
About our Guest
Having started adult life as an eating disorder sufferer and continuing to struggle for a decade, Gemma Birbeck’s career in PR didn’t begin until aged 25. Volunteering for a local rugby club, it became evident that the development and implementation of communications strategies was her true calling – a realisation that was reinforced when an expert PR agent declared she had natural talent.
Following his advice to seek a career in the industry, Gemma set on a mission to secure an entry level role within agency, but it soon became apparent that the industry was broken, requiring years of experience for even the most junior roles. This didn’t stop Gemma. She continued to invest in CPD, gaining qualifications and documented experience, as well as volunteer PR roles to build a portfolio demonstrating her talent. In 2017, she secured her first PR role in agency and the rest is history. Gemma is now the proud owner of 3 year old agency, Loaded PR, an agency committed to making PR accessible for all.
About our Host
Pete Evans has over 20 years sales experience with a successful corporate sales career. If you’re involved in B2B selling, cold calling, sales recruitment, sales training, sales coaching, sales transformation or have a desire to grow your business then this podcast is for you.
Pete is currently MD and Practice Partner of SalesStar UK. SalesStar combines sales training with sales coaching to deliver long term results in line with your sales strategy so you can smash your targets and grow top line revenue. SalesStar works with growth minded CEOs and sales leaders who are frustrated with their sales results and are looking for a proven system to grow sales.
Intro/Outro | Pete Evans | Gemma Birbeck
Welcome to the Creating SalesStars Podcast. Each week, our host, Pete Evans, will be joined by some of the big and upcoming names within the sales industry. This is brought to you by SalesStar UK.
Welcome, everybody to this week’s edition of the Creating SalesStars Podcast. This week, I’m delighted to invite onto our show, Gemma Birbeck, who is the founder and managing director of a PR agency based in Leeds, called Loaded PR. So a very different guest this week. Gemma’s business doesn’t have sales teams, but the reason that I invited Gemma onto the show is that for the benefit of our listeners, I really like to un-pack the issue of why you know, developing your own brand, your own brands, not your own brands, is important in developing sales teams. Why things like, you know, PR and digital are important for creating sales opportunities. So, Gemma, welcome.
Thanks, Pete. Delighted to be on the show.
Yeah, it’s great to have you. And I think for the benefit of our listeners, it would be great if you could just tell us a little bit about your back story and what led you into running a successful PR agency.
Yeah, sure. I mean, like many of the kind of agency founders the business started from my sofa derived from a passion of mine that always crept into my work life as I went through. So I’d done kind of various different roles within the finance space, and I always navigated towards the marketing and PR departments, the free of charge because I just had such enthusiasm to get involved and do more for companies. There was a massive issue I felt, you know, back in those days as well. That brand just wasn’t something people considered beyond kind of visual identity, where brands, you know, nowadays more and more people are realising that it is actually about the people in the business. You know, your digital footprint where you look like it’s all about your tone of voice, how you speak to people with so many different elements. And that’s kind of the basis that we used, you know, to develop the agency as it’s grown across the years, we’re focused on how can we get companies building that brand being seen in the right places and bringing their people into the spotlight too, to help leverage their company? We do work with quite a lot of businesses, different sizes, you know, ranging across the whole organic content side of things or organic social, organic PR brand building and your brand, you know anything from that perspective. And the reason we focus on organic is because it’s authentic, it’s natural, it’s not paid, and it gives people opportunity to be really personalised in what they say and, you know, develop the content for their audience and for their brand.
I mean, just actually when we’ve been talking Gemma, I mean, obviously, we know each other and but I’ve been taking quite a few notes, which is going to help me ask you some more questions. It’s a bit like it’s a bit like being interviewed for a job. This, isn’t it, gemma?
Do I have a second interview?
Yeah, it could be. But listen, let me assure you that the next panel is a lot tougher than me. But I mean, you know, knowing you for the past couple of years, it’s undoubted about your enthusiasm, not only for your own, your own business, but for the other businesses that you’re working with. Well, I think for the benefit of the listeners, I’d just like to ask you a question about sales, actually. And you know what? You know your own business. A lot of people that I’ve met in the past who’ve set up their own businesses, they’ll say to me, but I didn’t go into business to have to sell. So what? What sort of challenges have you faced in selling your services and, you know, selling what you do to businesses?
I think not, not necessarily the issue with kind of selling the business once we get in front of people, you know, and attracting an audience. And obviously that’s part of what we focus on. But the real issue that I found is that I actually fail to recognise sales needed to be on all the time. I was very, very adamant when I first started out. You know, it’s all about building the brand, which is great and obviously is impactful, and that’s helping attract a really good client base, but never paid attention to actually having a sales function in place. You know, I didn’t understand what it took to be involved in selling do selling well when it was actual outreach. You know, we were sat back kind of waiting for people to come to us. And luckily, obviously because of the brand building, we’ve had that. But, you know, sometimes I look back and I think to myself, what position could we have been in? Would have really invested in getting a sales team on board and a sales team that knew how to sell and were passionate about selling.
Yeah I mean, it’s really interesting and I’ve just wrote that down. You know, sat back waiting for the phone to ring. So is there a clue there that perhaps with all the great stuff that you do for businesses that actually, you know, have we forgotten the importance of just picking the phone up to somebody and and prospecting?
Massively, you know, even even, you know, contradicting kind of the services that we offer? The PR and the personal brand building is just one part of the mix. What that does is can shorten the sales cycle, but that doesn’t mean to say it replaces the sales cycle at all. And I think that it’s really important for business owners to remember that there needs to be that sales function in place. And not just any sales function to say you’ve ticked a box, but one that works, you know, active outreach and where the PR and the brand building comes into that is that when you’re actually reaching out to these customers, you know that you’ve never spoken to before, it’s evidential. What kind of a company you are, what kind of person you are. And it almost helps with that cold sell.
And so I think what you’re saying there is, you know, as a business owner, you personally recognise the importance of having a sales process, which people follow. If you’ve got the if you’ve got the money to invest in a sales team, it’s something you do because you feel it accelerates your growth. But what I really like to touch on is having evidence. So I think what you’re saying is, is that, you know, things like PR marketing, using digital tools can provide evidence that you’ve got the credibility when you’re speaking to prospects and you’re reaching out to people who haven’t come across you before, that is that what you’re saying is the whole PR and digital space can provide prospects with evidence that you’ve got credibility?
Oh, definitely. I mean, all you have to do is think about your own kind of let’s look at our own purchasing behaviours. So if I want you to go buy a wedding dress or I buy a new pair of shoes, you know, it’s an instant thing I want. And I’m going to be definitely interested in the products I’m going to be interested in. You know what it looks like on me? I’m going to want to know a little bit about what the material is, all that kind of stuff. But then when you think about a B2B Service. In particular, you know, you would understand the principles of what’s on offer. You understand what the results could be, but how do that company there is going to build a great relationship with you that they can be trusted? You know, how do you know what they stand for or do their values align to yours? The communication methods are going to be OK. Have they taken note of putting back into the community what they’re almost in effect, taken out of it? And all that can be evident in the way that you, you know, you build your brand for your company and for yourself.
Okay, you’ve mentioned some really great points and you have mentioned the words, you mentioned the word ‘values’. And you know, do the does your prospect understand your values? Are your values aligned? I mean, in your experience in terms of, you know, particularly PR and building brands, do you think the word values is overused or do you think actually organisations can really portray the values through PR and marketing?
I think it’s often overused kind of people develop values in their brand on, you know, what’s going to make us look good or almost fluffy. So you get kind of, you know, values like where we’re honest, you know? Well, I hope that the majority of people are honest. But what does that look like from a way of how you do business? What does that look like from the post that you put on social media, for example? I mean, a classic win in our industry is kind of consistently shouting about all the positives without talking about the negatives or the hard work behind it. And, you know, to kind of really bring your values to life and evident that you follow them, you know, why are you not talking about those difficulties, all the challenges that you fit, you know, offer advice for all the people that might be going through the same experience and allow them to resonate and learn from you if you’ve got some experience to share. And I think, you know, through the PR kind of stuff, you know, showing what your values are. Classic example for you guys, you know, investing so heavily in the younger talent in the region, you are developing people and that’s evident. You know, you committed that to developing people as evident in what you’re doing within your own business, which sharing that with the media demonstrates that.
So essentially, the two things that really resonate with and you’ve talked about, you know, sharing the challenges that a business a business has. So, you know, thinking about myself as a leader and thinking about all the leaders that you know, we both know and work with. Do you think it’s now acceptable for a leader to say, well, actually, you know, we’ve in the past we’ve had challenges growing our business. These are some of the challenges or do you think that actually could put potential prospects off?
I think it’s important the word that you use that, I mean, obviously, there’s a certain extent that you don’t want to be just constantly plastering the negatives all over because you know, again, when you build in a brand, that’s not what it is, but you need to be authentic in what you say in and paint a real picture that your audience can resonate with. So not necessarily from like a target client perspective either or the people in your industry, you want them to look up to you. That is part of your personal brand. And by sharing, you know, actually, here’s what I really struggled with last year and it did cause xyz. But here’s a solution I found I think is very, very valuable. I think it demonstrates that you are really, really honest about the situation. And then from a, you know, prospective client perspective, they’re going to be able to see. I can trust this person because they’re not just painting in this 100% perfect picture because perfect doesn’t exist.
I love what you’ve just said there about perfect doesn’t exist, but do you think some organisations and businesses do portray themselves as being, you know, super slick and perfect yet under the skin, they’re not?
Yeah and I definitely think that more brands are going to be kind of clicking onto the fact that that’s not that’s not, you know, it’s not true. I think this year, particularly post-pandemic, everyone’s kind of changed their mindset. And I know Pete, you talk a hell of a lot of mindset, but people have changed their mindset, things a lot more. Things mean a lot of different things to them, and they’re not looking so much for that award winning company. You know, they’re looking for that honest, true, passionate company that’s got really strong CSR, a good employer brand, you know, gives back to the community. That’s what people are looking for. And if brands are going to consistently paint this perfect picture, it will have an impact on their revenue.
And why is that? Why is this having this perfect picture got to have an impact? Because is that because some of the things you’ve already said?
Yeah, and I think, you know, scepticism, that’s the right word. And, you know, put yourself in. I’m going to put that question back on you. If you were to approach me and everything was completely 100% perfect for amazing and thinking about what you guys, you know, your values and what kind of people you are, would that put you off investing?
Yeah it probably were, because I think every business is in its growth phase or even when it gets in more -, I wouldn’t say sort of sustainable where it begins to flat, flat line, you know, makes mistakes. And I think I think every business will have a customer or some customers or clients that are not entirely satisfied. But I think actually when customers aren’t entirely satisfied, that’s your opportunity to show what you really worth as an organisation, you know. And somebody once said to me many years ago, you only learn how good a supplier or partner is when actually something goes wrong. And you see your experience, how they respond.
So I think personally, it is about being authentic and a bit like you are. You know what we are dealing with. You know, we’re not selling widgets. We are dealing with human beings. We’re dealing with the emotions and the mindset. So I think to say we don’t always get it right, I think puts people at ease.
-because you are authentic. So I think actually, Gemma, I think maybe we should be interviewing me, but I would carry on asking you the questions-
I just wanted to pick up on a point that you just said there about the different challenges and mistakes and points and, you know, people sharing good news, et cetera. And in the midst of a kind of recruitment issue at the moment, you know, people are kind of, you know, the whole great resignation people are struggling to recruit. Well, I’m seeing a lot of these people sharing, you know, we’ve just appointed xyz who’s driving the business. But we know for a fact that businesses are losing employees now. You can turn that into a positive. You’re happy to announce people are joining the business. Why not announce the fact that somebody else is moving onto a new role? You know, they’ve progressed in their career, so thank you demonstrate what kind of an employee you are when people leave. And that was kind of on your point of, you know, how do people respond when things go wrong? Obviously, that’s not a wrong scenario, but it’s the same kind of thing. How do you respond when things are always to your benefit? And I think that’s really important for people to consider when they’re, you know, portraying their brand online.
And I think that’s a really relevant point. So Gemma as everyone knows, you know, you’re running a PR business and you know, we’ve had discussions in the past about, you know, maybe shouting a bit louder. But do you think from your perspective, you know? And obviously our audience is, you know, a lot of sales leaders, some sales managers, some business owners, the, you know, listening to this and thinking, well, actually, we don’t want to shout louder because actually, you know, shouting louder online is that not very? Is that not all hype and rah rah? And is it just not a substance because it’s so easy these days as you and I have discussed to, you know, develop a brand and a following quickly. Yet some of those brands, even in our own sector, don’t seem to have much substance. What are your thoughts on that and how do you how do you encourage people to maybe get a bit more actively involved in the digital space for outreach and, you know, creating awareness?
I think, you know, the first part and kind of overcome those barriers is to forget the idea of it being kind of shouting about your business. You know, that’s not what building a personal brand is about. The core thing that I say to people is, what do you want to achieve through posting? You know, what do you want to achieve through PR? Is it that you positioning in your company in a certain way? And how do you want to build your brand? How do you want to be perceived? And a lot of that comes to adding value to your followers. Now you’re not necessarily going to add value to your followers by just shouting about, again, you know, all those successes. What you can do is share your expertise, demonstrate what you know about the industry, get involved in conversations and don’t be afraid to kind of lead on conversation. So just because somebody else is not saying it. If you think it and it’s relevant and you can justify why you think it, then share it, you know, be that thought leader.
I know I know you talk a lot about thought, you know, about thought leadership and putting yourself out there, and this is all for me. It’s all about, you know, giving credibility to people. And obviously, you know, you were one of the people who encouraged us to start this podcast. So thanks, Gemma – And it has, you know, through interviews generated additional interest in our brand. It’s generated some, some client work, which is, you know, fantastic. So, you know, I know these things do work, but it takes some time and effort. And this brings me back to the sort of sales issue and something you said earlier about, you know, you wish you’d invested in certain things because you thought actually by, you know, putting things out there, you thought the phone was going to ring and it clearly it clearly didn’t. Or, you know, you’ve got a very successful business. Now, how do you talk to people about, you know, the importance of ongoing activity in the digital space? There isn’t there isn’t a magic wand to success in the digital and the PR space. You know, how would you say “actually Pete you know, you’re going to need to be doing this consistently”? You know, you need to get your self out there as a thought leader. You need to get some of your salespeople, like those as thought leaders. You need to be doing more consistently in the digital space. How do you how do you convince somebody to do that?
Two ways, really. I think the first is always kind of pushing it back to them and how they operate within business. You know, what is their service or delivery? You know, whatever it is that they’re selling, what is that like to clients? Is it a one off going to be nice to them on the phone? Then kind of forget about that and not focus on any account management, not deliver on time, not put the effort in consistently. And it helps people kind of understand the importance of investing in, you know, developing their personal brand consistent with content and what that partner is to potential clients. People want somebody reliable. If you reliable with your own brand, then it suggests that you’re going to be a reliable person to work with, and the other one is completely gone out of my head. That too.
You did say to and I’m going to hold you to account.
I did it earlier in a conversation, as well as midway through a conversation that I’ve forgotten what I’m going to say. It will come.
I’ll get, I’ll give you. I’ll give you the opportunity later when it comes back to you. And if you don’t remember it during the course of the podcast, I’m sure you’ll share it with our, with our listeners, with our listeners afterwards. So I want to really come back a bit to your own business, Gemma. So it’d be great just to share some of your vision for your own growth in your own business with us. And let’s see whether the conversation takes. So what are the plans for Loaded PR? I on a personal front, you’ve got a lot of activity going on this year and congratulations, you’re getting married later this year.
Thank you. Yeah, that’s a whole business in itself,
As I’ve heard many times. What are know, what are the plans for Loaded PR this year and beyond? You know, where do you see your agency growing to?
Yeah so you know, as I mentioned kind of earlier on, we kind of got all the foundational, um, you know, referrals credibility in place first and kind of failed to recognise what our sales function was not really focusing on growth because I’ve never been. I know people say this, but I’ve never been driven by making loads of money. I just loved what I did, but I’ve almost had to take on that business head recently, you know, and shift away from doing some of that doing to really think about what direction our business is going in. And, you know, I’ve got a really good network of people who have, you know, been in my position that are experts, you know, like yourself Pete. that just share a little nuggets of advice that have really helped me develop a growth strategy for our agency. And the core part of that is to actually build a sales funnel. You know, look at what our sales plan is and what technology we need. Do we need to get in place? Does that require additional team to come on board? But also kind of remembering how do we ensure that doesn’t become the prime focus that we, you know, we constantly chase new business and forget about the clients that have been with us across the years through our various stages of growth in the past.
So it’s interesting that you mentioned about not forgetting about the clients that have been with you of over the years and not consciously pursuing new business. So do you think businesses are not as good as they could be about retaining existing clients and also increasing the share of customer spend from existing closure, I think, do you think that’s something that your clients miss out on?
I’m not entirely sure, really. I think one thing that I’ve noticed and this is quite evident, you know, like when you look in kind of online for like sales training, for example, yeah, there’s a lot of focus on sales for new business, whereas, you know, you’ll be able to answer this Pete sales as a function is about existing customers. You know, how can you how can you develop relationships with those customers? What does the process look like in the background? How do you implement that into the business without it impacting other areas, as well as obviously bringing in New business? And I think that some people are not as effective within their sales because they don’t take all those elements into account.
Yeah, I mean, it’s something I’m very passionate about is what we refer to as account growth, which is having it, having a plan and a strategy to grow your share of, you know, share of wallet. So what your clients are spending with you. But I think what you see is a lot of short termism, and I think sometimes what happens is the, you know, you’ve heard me talk many times about Relationship Selling is dead. So lots of people when business on the fact that they’ve got what they perceive as a great relationship, but what they mean is they become friends with their clients rather. And what we regard is a great relationship is where you’ve got a great business relationship, where you, you partner, you can challenge your clients and you’re not fearful of challenging the existing relationship because actually, you know, if you challenge you, you’re adding more value to your clients. And you’re increasing your chances of winning things. So I think account management has to be structured. Yeah, and you can’t leave things to chance. Yet you and I know that lots of businesses have relationships where it’s just a little bit too cosy.
I don’t think I think having a cosy relationship can actually lead to complacency. I’m going to be interested in your thoughts. You think people get complacent with their clients?
Yeah, I do. Yeah, I think and you know, over the years, you know, probably not necessarily complacent, but maybe being more of a friendly with clients can make certain conversations difficult when you have them. And again, you know, we’ve had to go through those learnings and challenges and figure out how do we be friends with our clients from a business sense and still have that open platform to be able to both provide feedback to each other, to have negotiations about things like cost or, you know, make recommendations to what else they should be doing. Also, vice versa. You know, if a client wants to come to us and not to feel that or their friends, we don’t want to kind of upset them. You know, if they want to come to us with the suggestion or change the strategy or, you know, they feel like a certain element might not necessarily be the right thing for them anymore. And they want to switch it up. You know, they’ve got that space now to be able to do that because the relationship is a business friendship, not a personal friendship.
Right. It’s really interesting, though, what you say about it’s a business friendship, not a personal friendship, but I think that’s just important to important to emphasise as well. And I want to come back to something, and it’s a phrase that’s often used in some networking circles where they talk about, well, if I’m going to do business with Gemma, I’ve got an amateur business I’ve got to know, like, and trust them. I’m sure you’ve heard that expression a few times and you’ve heard me talk about that. Actually, it’s not about knowing like and trusting somebody. It’s about knowing, respecting and trusting somebody. And, you know, you know, what do you think of that thing? It’s actually about respecting whether that the supplier or potential partner can actually deliver what they say they’re going to deliver, which which is linked right back to start this conversation. When you were talking about, you know, credibility. So do you think you can? Do you think you can respect what somebody delivers without being besties with them, for example?
Oh, massively 100% And I think it’s interesting there about what you said about the element because, you know, there almost needs to be an element of compatibility. So, you know, making sure that there’s not such a massive personality clash. But that doesn’t mean to say you have to be “pally pally” going out for a beer on a Friday night, you know, inviting it to the round for tea, that kind of thing. I think sometimes focusing on that as an entire way to retain clients will damage your business because they won’t see the value for you. So it would make difficult conversations, you know, at points of pricing increases, for example, or at a point where you might want to recommend an additional service. It could be that conversation of, well, we’re friends, can’t you do mates rates or something kind of thing.
This is really great discussion because you’ve talked to my mate rates and you’ve talked about, you know, if you’re friends with people, it’s a lot harder to get into negotiations. I mean, I have a sense just listening to you now, in the past, people have perhaps tried to take advantage and get you to discount, which you know, is a word that I positively hate Gemma. You know, as I sort of caused you challenges in the past in terms of perhaps having to discount to either retain a client or to even win new business.
When I first started out, what many business owners, you know, probably it was a case of, OK, you know, I need to pay my mortgage. And so you often take opportunities on, but probably not at the value you should. But as we’ve developed the business over the years, I’ve been very, very strict in creating specific packages, for example, start up businesses or charities and then discounts outside of that are non-negotiable. And I always say, you know, you wouldn’t walk into Tesco’s pick up the most expensive loaf of bread and then get to the till and say, well, can I have a discount? Cos it’s not really my budget, you know, they tell you to put it back. I think that you need to be very fair in understanding people’s revenues. And obviously, you know, one of our missions is to kind of make PR accessible to all, which is why we’ve done that, made that available for startups and kind of charities. But big businesses trying to kind of, you know, get a discount for the same service is something I don’t feel is the start of a great relationship. What I do believe, though, however, is there should be a room for negotiation on what that budget that they have can involve.
Right? Could you expand on how, you know, for some of our potential listeners who will be to are business owners, how they could do that because you don’t want to discount, but you you’ve said, you know, the client to the prospect can get involved in, you know what, what might be included. So, you know, can you just give us an example of how you might do that?
Yeah I mean, the first part of it, I think, is it is very, very important that you get a process and a good, in-depth questioning, you know, process in place during the discovery and understand what that person’s budget is. Understand what value they see, you know, particularly in our area, what value do they see in PR in the first place? What value do they see in content? You know, that will kind of give you an indication as to what they’re going to be willing to pay. Are they going to be willing to pay the prices? And then again, also creating bespoke strategies and bespoke proposals every time? If you know that a client’s got a budget, there’s absolutely no point in putting together a proposal with a standard package on that. You know that they’re not going to be able to afford and also feel like you’ve not listened to them. So it all comes back to that being personalised and bespoke and actually really, you know, getting into some of those conversations early on in the discovery session because as well what that does is that kind of sets the scene for your relationship going forward. And that respect. So if you can be quite assertive and not be afraid during the discovery call, it’s going to make for a better business relationship going forward.
OK, now this is all great stuff. So, Gemma, sadly we’ve got the end of our 30 minutes of the podcast and which has flown by. But I do have a couple of final questions. So you know, you’ve been running your business for quite a long time now. It’s successful. I know you’ve had some, some highs and lows, but you know, for somebody who’s perhaps thinking about starting up in business or is it fairly new to the business world? Whilst it was the one Nugget of advice that you would, you would give them.
Can I do, two?
You can do so.
I think, you know, the first one is make sure that you go to market strategy is developed first. You know, do that market research really look into where you can add real value with The business that you started? And second is despite what all the positivity books tell you, you know, it is extremely hard and even a positive mindset. Sometimes, you know, isn’t enough to get you through those difficult stages. So you have to be resilient, know that it’s going to get better and constantly develop yourself and your business and the way you do things.
OK, that’s two great pieces of advice and good negotiation skills there. Gemma, could you do two rather than one? I don’t know how you responded if I. No, I’m not I’m not that unkind, so if people want to reach out and connect with you, what’s the best way that they can connect with Gemma birbeck?
Hit me up on LinkedIn. Let’s have a chat. Let’s go for a Starbucks.
Yeah well, as you know, I love Starbucks. Although all I have to say, I don’t think you’ve taken me for one yet. I do tell a lie. When we went down to, we went down to London. When you and Oliver came to video of myself and Gemma and Gemma Betts doing our run challenge with Jamie Peacock and his team. I think we did have a Starbucks at the start of the train journey
And Oliver certainly had two!
So, yeah, that’s right. So which is great. But Gemma, thank you so much for participating in our podcast is being great to interview. I hope you’ll come back in the future to be interviewed again, perhaps on a different topic. Go well.
Yeah, thank you Pete, It’s been great. You take care.
Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you by SalesStar and hosted by Pete Evans. For more information about what we can offer you head to our website at salesstar.com/UK. You can also find us on all social media platforms just by searching for SalesStar UK.
Presenter and Producer: Pete Evans
Special Guest: Gemma Birbeck
Producer and Intro/Outro Voiceover: Oliver Eaton
Podcast Editor: Alex Mullen