Ep18 Frank Niekamp Creating Salesstar Podcast

Ep18: Frank Niekamp. Start treating your Team like you did your Customers

Join Pete Evans as he speaks with SalesStar Ohio practice partner Frank Niekamp. Looking back at his 30 years sales experience as a sales producer and sales leader, Frank explores the topics of having empathy, coaching, mindset and the power of practising. The pair look towards the learnings of Objective Management Group as well as exploring the theme of feedback and comfort zones. 


About our Guest

Frank Niekamp: “Prior to starting my own sales team development consultancy, I have lead sales teams for 2 Fortune 500 companies – Mohawk Group and Shaw Industries, a division of Berkshire Hathaway, in addition to 14 years of success leading B2B sales teams for Mannington Mills, the largest privately held flooring manufacturer in the United States.”

“I pride myself on having recruited & coached Teams that turned long time prospects into loyal customers. This success includes winning the largest commercial accounts including: Macy’s, Big Lots, and Ford Motor Company to name a few.”

About our Host

Pete Evans has over 20 years sales experience with a successful corporate sales career. If you’re involved in B2B selling, cold calling, sales recruitment, sales training, sales coaching, sales transformation or have a desire to grow your business then this podcast is for you.

Pete is currently MD and Practice Partner of SalesStar UK. SalesStar combines sales training with sales coaching to deliver long term results in line with your sales strategy so you can smash your targets and grow top line revenue. SalesStar works with growth minded CEOs and sales leaders who are frustrated with their sales results and are looking for a proven system to grow sales.

Episode Transcript

Intro/Outro | Pete Evans | Frank Niekamp

Welcome to the Creating SalesStars Podcast. Each week, our host, Pete Evans, will be joined by some of the big and upcoming names within the sales industry. This is brought to you by SalesStar UK.


Hello, everyone. Welcome to this week’s edition of The creating sale stars podcast. This week I’m delighted to welcome as our guest Frank Niekamp, who is the founder of SalesStar Ohio. So a fellow SalesStar practice partner. So welcome to the Creating SalesStars show. Frank, delighted to have you as our guest this week. 

Well, thank you, Pete. Excited to be here and have a quick conversation with you that we can share with our listeners. 

Fantastic so so Frank, obviously. You know, we’ve been SalesStar, partners now. And you work with SalesStar for a number of years, though. But I think for the benefit of our listeners and to sort of position this week’s podcast, it’d be great to know a little bit more for our listeners, benefit a bit more about Frank’s background before you came into being the first practice partner for sales star in the US. 

Well, thank you, Pete. I appreciate that opportunity. Yeah, I started my sales career over 30 years ago and like many of the practice partners, have a tremendous amount of commercial experience prior to getting to this point. But really for me, it all started as being a sales producer back in the early nineties, and working in outside sales roles is where the journey began. If you really wanted to trace back that far and that evolution of going from sales producer to a sales leader was one that I perhaps remember the most amount of growing pains around, perhaps even frustration and challenge in terms of being able to transition from a sales producer or an outside sales person to a sales manager or leader. Was extremely challenging for me, was probably the point that led me most to wanting to help other organisations, help other sales managers, business leaders and business owners develop real sales excellence within their organisation. 

I mean, it’s I just love what you’re saying, though, about how you transition into being a sales manager and sales leader. And you found that one of the most challenging things do. I mean, we see a lot of I think what you might refer to is salespeople are individual contributions, I think is the expression you use a lot in the US. See, I am learning the language, Frank, 

I love it. 

And you know, one of the questions around is, you know what? What are some of the key things you think sales leaders and sales managers would really be focusing on when creating high performing sales teams? Because you’ve just talked about some of the challenges you you face. What are the things you know, I know you’re getting some great results with your clients and the us, Frank, which is fantastic to see. But what are the things that the key things you think sales leaders and sales managers should really be focusing in on high performing teams? 

Well, Pete, the thing that hit me square between the eyes when I became a sales leader was that my skill set in my capabilities as a sales producer didn’t immediately transition into becoming a great leader and a great manager. So my first suggestion would be to look at the changes that they desire within their sales organisation and start with themselves first and really become the change that they want to see in their team, knowing that they are part of that continuous improvement process, if you will, and helping them get better and build some competencies around what really great sales leadership looks like. I think when I came to that realisation that I needed to change and grow myself is when I started to see the results that I was looking for from my team. 

I mean, it’s really interesting there you know, you’ve talked about, you know, going on this path of continuous improvement and also starting with you yourself as a leader, and/or manager. Yeah I mean, how many times running do you come across sales leaders and sales managers who you think the team needs to improve. But they’re not willing to participate and lead from the front? I mean, what sort of frustrations does that that course? 

Oh, so many, you know, and that’s the realisation that fortunately came to me rather quickly. I was. Leading the sales team down in the Southwest region of the United States and was covering nearly nine states working with about 15 sales producers. Thought I had all the answers of what it took to be successful and was looking for the change in the growth in them first, But in reality, as a leader, you’ve got to look at the competencies that need to improve from a sales management and a leadership perspective and developing a culture that it’s not just a new problem, but it’s a challenge. And how can we go about becoming more effective in our roles collectively as opposed to it being an individual issue? 

And how did at the time, Frank, how did your salespeople respond when you started to change when you have this? So I would refer to as this aha moment where you thought, actually, I’ve got to look myself in the mirror and I may not like what’s reflected back at me, but I’ve actually got to change if my other people are going to change. How did your people respond? 

Well, I think the word that I like to use is empathy. And I think when human beings really develop an approach towards empathy, whether it is working with their clients, working with their teams or working on themselves, and we truly have empathy for one another. And the challenges that we’re going through, we have a lot better success at achieving the results that we all desire. When we look at it as this is something we’re all in together. So that was a big catalyst for me. And that’s the word that comes to my mind. 

So so what you’re saying is you’ve really got to develop those empathy skills yourself so you can demonstrate your empathy. And Frank, another question around empathy. You know, a lot of people talk about, you know, while I’m an empathetic leader, do you think empathy is demonstrated by what you say are more by your actions as a leader? 

Well, it’s just it’s kind of ironic that one of the core values of that organisation was actions speak. And we don’t let our words to do the talking for us. And it’s more about what we do than what we say. And so that core value was already embedded within that organisation, and it was easy for us to latch on to and live, more importantly, every day. So without a doubt doing is way more important than saying or talking about. 

So Frank, I want to continue that with some this is some real nuggets for our listeners this week. But I’d like to come through to some of it, which we’re both very passionate about, as well as other SalesStar partners. Coaching So, you know, you talked the humility demonstrated in terms of, you know, this transition from being a sales contributor into a sales leader. And, you know, the moments of enlightenment, you had to realise that you had to change first. But, you know, in terms of internal, we’re both very passionate about coaching people and, you know, getting sales managers and sales leaders to be better coaches. At what point did you start to engage in coaching your teams? You know, you’ve talked about know, the not I’ve written down here the nine states you covered, the 15 salespeople. And at what point did you start using coaching effectively as a tool in your toolkit? 

You know, the thing that was probably the biggest aha moment for me was just how I looked at my team and in the way that I viewed them. Because as a sales producer or outside sales representative, you learn over time how to communicate most effectively with your customers. But for whatever reason, we get into this paradigm or this perspective that these people work for us when in reality, as a leader, we work for them. And I was fortunate to have a number of mentors and coaches, and one of those was actually my father in law, a very successful business owner and founder of a company. The bit of advice that he gave me was, you know, start treating your team like you did your customers and you’ll be really pleased with the response that you get when you communicate to them in a different way. And that happened to me really early in that journey of transitioning from a producer to a leader. And I think that paradigm shift is one that a lot of sales managers and leaders can take a cue from. And really coaching your team more effectively is just how you look at them and how you view their role versus your role. And when I started looking at my team as my customer. As opposed to a direct report. Really good things started happening for me. 

I mean, I just love what you’re saying, there, that, you know, it’s treating your team as if it was a customer. I mean, I think there’s so many there are so many lessons that, you know, both myself and the listeners can take away from that. You know, it’s interesting to see the impact that you had and I think that’s just a real nugget. But I want to come back to the subject of coaching. You know, perhaps, you know, some real things here, the aha moments that you’ve talked about. In terms of for the benefit, our listeners, what do you see are the key differences between maybe coaching somebody and, you know, even mentoring somebody? You know, you talked about your father-in-law. Your father all give you some great know, some great advice there. But what do you see is what do you see the differences between coaching somebody, you know, coaching your sales team and mentoring your sales team? What are the sort of key differences? 

Well, it definitely is a learned skill. And for those people that already understand the nuances between mentoring and coaching, this is probably going to resonate really quickly with them. And if it doesn’t, then you probably first need to wrap your head around the fact that one of the things that we use at SalesStar is telling is not selling. And I like to add on to that telling, not coaching either, but asking really great questions and being prepared to ask really tough questions at times of your sales team when you’re engaged in perhaps a pipeline review. Perhaps you’re getting prepared to go into a joint sales call or perhaps you’re even reviewing. How a sales call went, you know, preparing the types of questions that you want to ask as opposed to telling somebody what they need to do, I think is the key and defining what really great coaching looks like versus mentoring or telling somebody what they need to do. And I think that when somebody becomes a great coach, they know how to execute that what we refer to as a Socratic method of creating an influence over somebody that you’re trying to lead. Yeah as a key point there. 

So, again, I think what I’m hearing is that, you know, if you want to really, truly coach your people, you’ve got to get better asking great questions and also tough questions. You mentioned about pipeline review or pipeline squeeze, but a word. You’ve mentioned a few times, Frank is preparation is preparation. So what I’m hearing is, is that if you’re going to coach your team properly. And I think this circles back to, you know, the advice your father-in-law gave you about treat your team as if they were your customers. To be a great coach of your own team, you’ve got to invest time in preparing. So you’re an expression we use at SalesStar in terms of selling. You can’t just show up and throw up and you want to win coaching sessions where you team them. You’ve actually got to really be really well prepared for your coaching sessions.

Oh, without a question. Without a question. If you fail to plan, you’re planning to fail in any endeavour. And I think really sales leadership is the same. It takes incredible amounts of preparation and thoughtfulness to be able to prepare the right way for those conversations, which at times involve accountability. At times involve coaching somebody up in a competency that’s really important. But yeah, the conversations oftentimes get avoided, particularly around accountability and why so many sales managers. Don’t execute accountability and the best way. For a variety of reasons, and one, they avoid the conversations that are very difficult to have. And when you avoid those conversations, then, well, accountability doesn’t exist. 

And why do you think sales managers and sales leaders avoid those types of conversations? What do you think gets in the way of the manager asking great questions and holding people’s feet to the fire? 

Well, I think it’s a mindset issue for sure, because we do innately have a need for approval and need to be liked. We feel that whether it’s with a customer or with a teammate, and when we have a need to be liked as a boss as opposed to be respected, that type of mindset can really get in the way of having sometimes what I refer to as a healthy conflict. A healthy intervention of sorts that gets into that managerial component. And when you look at those conversations in a different way. And one of the best ways, another one of our coaches on the team here likes to say likes to ask the question when he’s coaching a manager to become more effective, is it going to be more uncomfortable for you to have this conversation or is it going to create more stress for that individual if they’re not able to adjust course and get the results that they need in order to be successful in their role? Which which one of those situations is going to create more stress. And almost always, I think the person that you ask that question to says, well, it’s going to create a lot more stress. If they’re not hitting their numbers. So which which which conversation? Which conversation would you rather have? Sorry about that. Have my phone ringer on in the background here. 

That’s that’s OK. That’s probably somebody ringing you up to ask you which one of those options they’d like to choose

Exactly exactly. 

Anyway, the interruption keeps the podcast real, and it shows that obviously you’re in demand. I just love what you’ve said there, you know, those two options. And I think it’s interesting how often sales managers and leaders that they don’t think about the stress they’re going to cause by not tackling the problem. 

That’s right. 

But actually, I think what a lot of sales management sales leaders do is they sort gravitate to the cause of least resistance, which is to tell the salesperson what they should be doing rather than asking them, you know, using a coaching great coaching framework such as the growth methodology to actually elicit and help the salesperson understand how they can improve and the actions they need to take in creating that culture of culture of accountability as well. 

Well, no doubt. 

Now, I’d like to come back to something you said before. You know, you talked about used the expression healthy conflicts. Could you elaborate for the benefit, our listeners, a bit more what you mean by healthy conflicts? 

Well, to me, I think the best conversations that we have with our clients is the ones that aren’t always that pleasant to have. And when I’m being coached, whether it’s by our internal leadership team or even my peers, I know those conversations aren’t always the most comfortable, but inherently and I think we can all agree to this, that if you are to grow as an individual, you have to get comfortable with the idea that being uncomfortable as part of that process. And so in a lot of ways, conflict or things that are uncomfortable is a really healthy way for us to live. And it’s inherently crucial for us to be comfortable being uncomfortable in any conversation. So when we start looking at when we start looking at conflict or things that are difficult or things that are extremely challenging or things that cause us stress as being the path to growth, then I think we’re really starting to look at that as a very healthy, healthy part of our development. 

I mean, I was talking to somebody, somebody this morning and essentially you talked about, you know, fairly comfortable and the comfort zone. And, you know, I was saying to this individual, listen, the comfort zone is where mediocrity grows and where weeds grow. 


..And actually, you’ll remember that we probably a couple of months ago now, actually, we interviewed Jamie Peacock, who ran the 100 mile challenge on behalf of a charity that we’re supporting this year. He used the expression that actually, you know, what you need to do and what people need to do is they need to get comfortable about being uncomfortable. 


And I think, you know what? For me, what coaching does what great coaching does is that it challenges people’s thinking. And I sort of think and I’m sure you’ve thought this has been a sort of SalesStar practice partner. I can’t even remember where my comfort zone is. I’m so far outside of it. So do you think that’s healthy as well to be so far outside your comfort zone that you feel like-? 

-I think it’s reasonable to expect that there’s a certain amount of our work day or work week or work month, a certain percentage of time. We need to be able to live in a zone where we are uncomfortable. I had a client refer to it as going into the pain cave. You’ve got to be willing to enter your pain cave at least once a day, whether it’s for exercise or whether it’s for developing a stronger mindset or skill set. And I just love that expression. So we don’t have to live there all the time. And if we do, we know that excessive amounts of stress can also be debilitating. So I think we really need to look at that in terms of some of the activities that we tend to avoid. Whether it be diet and exercise or whether it be some function within our sales process. The one that comes to my mind immediately is that most sales people will avoid doing the things that are most uncomfortable to them. And one of those challenges that almost all of our clients have is they don’t feel like their salespeople are doing enough prospecting. They’re not doing enough outbound activity to reach out to people who don’t already know, like and trust them. And conversely, they spend all of their time with existing clients. And, you know, when that’s the case. And if that’s something that resonates with people that are listening to this conversation today in order to be able to grow your business, it’s very difficult if you don’t have a really strong competency developed and a strong mindset around outbound activity. 

This is this is really interesting, Frank, because one of the things I wanted to, you know, set the conversation onto was around was our own mindset and sales mindset. You know, we’re both active partners of Objective Management Group who OMG, you know, you’ve, as we’d say the UK, I’ve probably got the best sales assessment sales evaluation tool to help organisations understand what’s blocking the success of their salespeople. You know, and you’ve touched on this, this really important issue of mindset. Do you think it’s possible for sales managers and sales leaders to coach, you know, coach their sales teams on mindset and help individuals or individuals within that team improve the mindset. Do you think that’s possible? 

Well, it’s not only possible. We do it every day in and day out that we work with our clients because we know for a fact that. Mindset attributes contribute to the majority of whether somebody is going to be effective as a salesperson or not. And if we ignore those realities, how effective we could be as sales coaches and trainers to our clients is going to be tremendously limited. And why I see that most sales training initiatives that companies either sponsor internally or they source from external sources, if they avoid that reality, their effectiveness in terms of being able to achieve true performance development and effectiveness is not going to be what it could. 

So so what? So what you’re saying then? It’s not about, you know, just training on skill set. You’ve really you’ve really got to double down your efforts on improving the mindset of your salespeople. 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things is the types of beliefs that we have, I think is one of the competencies of mindset that is most important. Henry Ford has perhaps come up with more quotes and great ideas than any other leader in the history of time. And the quote that he has that resonates the most with me around mindset is whether you think you can or think you cannot. You’re probably right. And so by having really strong supportive beliefs around being able to execute sales in a, in a very positive way and achieving successful outcomes is perhaps one of the most crucial things that a salesperson can develop. 

So, Frank, you know, you talked about your transition early on into a sales leader and a sales manager. And we’ve just we’re talking about mindset. So, you know, let’s say, for example, you could wind the clock back and, you know, sort of ten, 15 years. And I can’t do that for you, Frank. By the way, I’m not a miracle worker, which I’m sure a lot of us wish that with the benefit of expertise and knowledge we’ve now got in life. But you know, what advice would you give the younger Frank Niekamp who was just starting out as a sales manager and sales leader, you know, particularly around the issue, the challenges of mindset. What advice would you give the younger Frank sort of starting out today?

Yeah, so I think the biggest mindset thing that we just talked about was having really strong supportive beliefs. Some people might even call that confidence in doing what you’re set out to trying to accomplish or achieve. And for me, from my own experience, and perhaps this is something that the listeners can relate to, the thing that most directly impacts my beliefs or confidence is preparation. And I think we talked a little bit about this at the outset. If you don’t practice and you don’t prepare for a sales presentation. What level of confidence do you bring into that? Conversation whereas somebody on the flip side who spends perhaps several hours practicing with peers, role playing the conversation in their minds or practicing with their sales leader. What kind of impact could that have on their ability to have confidence and strong supportive beliefs? Because if you don’t believe in yourself, how is your customer going to believe in you? Or as a sales manager or a sales leader? If you’re not confident in your conversations that you’re having with your team, how much influence are you going to be able to effect on the person that you’re trying to coach if you’re not prepared to do that in the best way? 

Yeah, I’d like to touch on the issue of role play, Frank. You know, in SalesStar. That was something, you know, we have to do all the time to keep sharpening both our sales skills and our own coaching skills. Why do you think salespeople don’t want to practice and role play? 

That’s a great question. I think there’s a number of reasons for that. Number one is it’s uncomfortable, as we talked about before, even standing in front of a mirror can have sometimes very difficult and uncomfortable for us as people. And so inherently we avoid it. But it’s perhaps the biggest opportunity when you look at the amount of time each week that a sales person has dedicated to face to face customer communications. Our research, working with clients and even having been salespeople ourselves is less than 25% of a salesperson’s time is actually spent in front of a customer. So what are they doing with the remaining 75% to 90% of their week that’s keeping them from doing the type of role, play or practice that we’re talking about? And I think the biggest thing is, is they don’t know how. When you look at the types of behaviours that we know people should do. There’s usually three reasons for it. They either don’t want to, they don’t know how to, or they think they’ve already got it figured out. And they don’t. 

This is really interesting. I mean, you know, my experience of working with sales teams is, you know, the moment you mention role play, you’ve almost got salespeople running for the hills and all. You know, what you get is, yeah, we’re prepared to do a role play, but that’s not what happens in real life. And when you do the observation of role plays as a coach, you can actually see that they’re not following a process, they’re not using a positioning statement, they’re not using a unique value proposition. They’re not asking great questions. And then when you coach them around, what’s happened in the role, players say, but Frank, I do think completely a difference in the real world. Yeah, we all know what we’ve just observed in the role play is probably happening in the real world as well. Because actually I’m a firm believer that if you know how to if you’ve got a great positioning statements, you’ve got a great, unique value proposition, you could ask great, great questions onto whatever methodology it is, whether it’s whether it’s star, whether it’s spin, whether it’s medic, you know, any of the methodologies. Actually, what happens is if you can do that in a role play, that’s what you’re going to be doing in real life. 

Yeah, I think it really impacts confidence as well. If you’re prepared for those conversations and the people that execute them the best typically have tremendous amount of experience or practice in those conversations and those people that really struggle executing sales conversations in the best way. They don’t yeah, they don’t have the depth of experience to be able to execute those or they just don’t know and they haven’t got, they haven’t been given really honest feedback from somebody who’s willing to give that to them. And I think that when you do role play, you have an opportunity to capture that honest feedback, that your customer prospect just isn’t as invested in your success enough to give you or they just don’t have the time. Yeah so you leave a meeting thinking that everything went really well because the prospect of the client was really nice and said all the pleasant things to you that you would have liked to have heard. But in reality, the deal goes nowhere. And the opportunity stalls and salespeople are left wondering, I have no idea why this isn’t coming together in a closed won opportunity like I hoped it would. 

Yeah and often what salespeople suffer from is with the expression happy is. That’s right. So they hear what they want to hear without actually challenging to the customer. And last week I was doing some coaching with a salesperson, a sales manager, and the salesperson was getting really excited. And, you know, what I did was I actually challenged them and they said, oh, it’s definitely going to happen. And I said, well, hang on a minute. You’ve just mentioned that you had the sales manager and the managing director on the virtual meeting. Yeah the managing director is the decision maker. So kind of can I ask you, Frank, why the managing director is now going to talk to the two other shareholders? If you’re saying the managing director and they said, well, what do you mean? I said, well, you’ve just told me there’s another stage in the process. So, so, right. So I said, what got in the way of you inviting the other two stakeholders to the meeting. Right and said, well, the M.D. told me that he was the decision maker. So can I just understand this again, Frank? You’ve just told me that he’s now having to talk to his other two stakeholders, right? So do you really think he’s the sole decision maker? What? what’s the step? So, but what we did was, was unpack it and really, you know, really love it. So and it turned out his mindset issues that were preventing them from actually going forward. Frank I’d really like to finish on the topic of, of, of my really of mindset not so in mindset a feedback. And at the moment I’m, I’m reading a great book about called Thanks for the feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila him really enlightening highly recommend it to you Frank and it’s all about how as individuals we receive feedback and it’s linked to everything that all the great nuggets have shared with us. Frank today on the podcast. But why do you think people are so uncomfortable about receiving feedback and they shy away from it because you’ve talked about it a few times, but why do you think people are shy away from receiving feedback? 

Well, I’d be really curious to hear what’s in the book around that. But, you know, I think that there is some mental or some mindset issues around that. So oftentimes we don’t handle failure in the best way. We don’t like to recognize our weaknesses as much as what we probably could benefit from is where my intuition is going. But, you know, it’s one of those things as human beings, we generally are more attracted to praise, recognition and appreciation. And I think when you look at feedback in, in a way that isn’t related to receiving praise, recognition for success or appreciation, you look at the opposites of. But receiving praise, recognition for success. Check it out. That’s interesting. My computer’s actually talking to me now so that no one, no one, no one that we love those things. Pete, would it be safe to say that when we get feedback that sometimes of negative or negative orientation in nature, we tend to avoid wanting to hear those things? 

Yeah, I think you’re correct. I mean, as you’re aware, Frank, I’m and I think you are as well. I’m on the edge of the scale when it comes to both receiving feedback. Um, and wanting to action it as well because I personally, I think feedback is a gift. So if you’re, if I’m, if I’m doing something with you, you give us some feedback. And that feedback may maybe feel a little bit uncomfortable. But actually, if I think, well, if that’s Frank’s perception, then I’ve got a responsibility as an individual to take action on it. Not everybody has that mindset. I always think if an individual or a client has taken the time to give us some feedback, then it’s actually because they genuinely care about our success. 

That’s right. And I love the way you’re looking at that feedback loop as being something that can actually benefit you, as opposed to something that’s critical in nature and personal at times. And so, you know, I lean into the I lean into the quote that really sticks with me a lot when you look at things, when you change the way that you look at things, the things that you look at change and when you change, the way you look at feedback is something that’s not critical or detrimental or harmful, but it’s something that can truly benefit and help you become a better version of yourself. Then I think you can start to embrace feedback in a more positive way. 

Exactly I think that’s I think that’s a fantastic way for us to finish this podcast. Right so finally, Frank, if people want to reach out and talk to Frank about what you’re doing with sales star and SalesStar Ohio, what’s the best way for them to contact you? 

Well, you know, phone is always on, as you can tell, even from the beginning of this session here today, what was ringing. But that cell phone number for me is 6145519858. Or we’re on the website at SalesStar.com/us. Our contact information is all there for anybody that’s listening. 


We certainly love conversations or we wouldn’t be in sales and sales coaching, would we do? 

We certainly would. So, Frank, it’s been a real pleasure to have you on the podcast. This week. And looking forward to inviting you back in the future and you have-

So much pleasure. Yeah thank you, Pete. Really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for inviting me to this conversation and have a great week Everybody.


Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you by SalesStar and hosted by Pete Evans. For more information about what we can offer you head to our website at salesstar.com/UK. You can also find us on all social media platforms just by searching for SalesStar UK.


Presenter and Producer: Pete Evans
Special Guest: Frank Niekamp
Producer and Intro/Outro Voiceover: Oliver Eaton
Podcast Editor: Alex Mullen

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